OT - I don't _hate_ McMansions

Bryan Sant bryan.sant at gmail.com
Tue Jun 24 12:36:25 MDT 2008

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bryan Sant wrote:
>> The kids that do that for builders (at least the ones I've talked to)
>> make around $12/hr.  That freakin' rocks.  I would have LOVED the
>> opportunity to make that kind of money as a kid.  Desperate times or
>> unmatched opportunity?
> Oh wow.  That's one of the most amazing assertions I have ever heard.

How is it an amazing assertion to state that the kids who are waving
signs for various builders are happy to do so because of the
relatively high level of compensation they receive?

> That's certainly news to child miners in places such as Africa and

What does a highly paid child who willingly choses to wave a sign in
American have to do with children who are literally forced into labor
in China, Africa, or Afghanistan?

> Afghanistan.  Certainly news to the millions of children that
> voluntarily work under the most horrid conditions because they have to,
> such as children in India and China that recycle *our* waste electronics
> and metals.  But they want to destroy their health and abandon
> educational opportunities, obviously.

These children don't "voluntarily" work under those conditions.  They
live under unthinkable governmental oppression.  They have no
alternatives.  Not like the bull crap whining where some Americans
claim we have no alternatives -- we ALWAYS have millions of
alternatives in a free nation -- including solving the problem
YOURSELF.  There is no comparison between conditions in our free
nation and those who live under oppression elsewhere.

> A general comment on this thread:  As for the right to a decadent
> lifestyle, sure we can enjoy the fruits of our labors, so long as they
> don't impact on the well-being and rights of others.  And certainly our

Agreed.  My rights end where yours begin.

> consumer lifestyles are *most definitely* effecting in a negative way
> the rights and well-being of people, including children, across the
> entire world.  This is the problem, and I think Dave and others are

We can't be held responsible for the human rights violations of other
countries.  They shouldn't use they're children for labor, but they
do.  Don't buy products from China then.

The commerce we do with other nations is a HUGE blessing and benefit
to them.  They should use that relationship in an ethical way, but
they choose not to.  The pressure should be placed on the foreign
countries in improve their human rights standards more so than on the
"average American".

> alluding to it when they decry the state of the average American.

Fair enough.  I don't mind people being critical of something they
disagree with in another.  However, your venom is misplaced in my
opinion.  Don't decry the average American.  They aren't asking for
children in China to be worked to death.  China is doing the offense
to their people, not Americans.  Criticize China, Africa, and

> Consider that your right to buy new toys and throw away your old toys,
> build huge houses, drive large luxury cars, does negative impact many,

Always buying new toys and throwing the old aways is stupid and
wasteful, and teaches your children not to value anything.  However,
do this does not negatively impact others -- it benefits them.  If we
all of the sudden stopped demanding products from these foreign
countries, their economies would fail, their people would be even
poorer, and their children would be put to work doing something else.
Don't be so naive to think that if we just stopped buying toys, these
foreign children would be free to go to school.  NO THEY WOULDN'T.
They would just be pimped out as child prostitutes or something even
worse than what they're doing now.

> many people.  In fact, high oil prices and their effects on developing
> nations and poverty across the world is entirely our fault (soon to be
> China's fault though).  Why should we think that oil for us on our terms
> is some kind of inherent right?

You're correct.  Oil isn't a right, it's a black, slippery, fluid that
comes from the ground.  We don't have enough of it and we should drill
here in America to increase supply and reduce prices world-wide, while
at the same time improving our nations self-reliance.  Drill Here,
Drill Now, Pay Less.


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