HB 139 (Wireless Internet Access Requirements, Chief Sponsor: Bradley M. Daw)

Bryan Sant bryan.sant at gmail.com
Thu Jan 24 12:14:23 MST 2008

On Jan 24, 2008 11:04 AM, Hill, Greg <grhill at corp.untd.com> wrote:
> The point is, if China came and put a military base in Mexico or Canada,
> and started bombing us from it, and continued doing so for a decade,
> then made up intelligence to support invading us, killing millions of
> our civilians in the process, we'd be fighting back, too.  Paul is of
> the opinion that we shouldn't be over there, militarily, unless we're
> prepared to deal with the consequences of doing so (i.e. 9/11, and all
> the other terrorist attacks).  He thinks our troops would do better to
> be, you know, protecting our own country instead of being used as
> leverage to make every other country on the planet do our bidding.
> Greg

Wait, wait, wait.  I wanted to respond with this:

Right.  I am agreeing with you and Von.  I just think there are more
powerful, rational, and logical reasons for agreeing with that
position than saying "the other kids don't like us".

However, I have to correct your grossly exaggerated parity.

A) We didn't make up the intelligence that we had about Saddam
Hussein.  We knew he had WMDs because WE SOLD 'EM TO HIM in the '80s.
French, UK, and German intelligence all AGREED with our intelligence.
We all had believable intel on the WMDs because Saddam wanted the rest
of the world generally and enemies in the middle east particularly to
BELIEVE that he did have WMDs.

B) 9/11 proceeded our invasion.  We didn't cause 9/11 (or other
terrorist attacks).  We try to prevent and respond to them.  Our
attacks against Afghanistan were COMPLETELY warranted.  Iraq wasn't.

C) The UN made something like 21 resolutions (a.k.a. threatening
letters) for Iraq to allow UN weapon's inspectors to come in and
verify that Saddam didn't have WMDs.  Saddam continued to not allow
inspectors in even after the UN had sent SEVERAL resolutions promising
to use FORCE against Iraq if he didn't comply.  Of course the UN is a
spineless, corrupt, joke so they didn't follow through on their
promises, even after fixed dates blew past.  So....  Congress declared
war and America, the UK, and a handful of other countries, kicked down
the door and spanked Saddam.  A little rash -- we should have waited
to firm up our intel.  WAY too expensive of an operation (despite the
right or wrong of it).  And, yes, it didn't help our image with
countries that were illegally selling minor weapons and other goods to
Iraq in the Oil for Food scandal (hello France, Germany, and Russia),
who didn't want the status quo rocked.  America merely did what the UN
promised they were going to do...  And yet we're the bad guys.  Screw
the UN.

D) This has been the most successful military operation of this size
EVER.  There's never been fewer soldiers killed, nor fewer civilians
killed in any war of this size in the past.  We haven't killed
millions of civilians -- rather Saddam killed millions of his own
civilians.  We're not monsters, etc., etc.  Also note that more
military personal died per year during Clinton peace time (due to
accidents, etc.) than Bush war time.
This doesn't make the war any less wrong.  But some of the points used
by those who appose the war makes them look stupid.

E) I don't think we should have gone into Iraq so hastily.  However,
we're there now, and I think pulling out the troupes abruptly would be
a disaster.  I agree with Ron Paul that we should pull out ALL of our
troupes from around the world (not just Iraq).  But this would have to
be done very gradually.  I love the military, but I hate government
intervention and by that principle, we shouldn't be out policing the
world.  Also, we're broke as a nation, and we can't afford to do so.

So, we agree on the general direction we should have taken.  But I
disagree with your analogy about China and Mexico.  Iraq is nothing
like that.  It was a bad case of government intervention and jumping
the shark.  It is an expensive and unnecessary war.  We can't afford
to liberate every sand pit country.  We need to fix our own issues.
Uphold our own laws and worry about ourselves.  That doesn't mean we
don't want to help others.  And it doesn't mean we aren't entitled to
self-defense (the war against Afghanistan was totally warranted).  But
we need to clean our own house first.


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