Project Planning Software

Roberto Mello roberto.mello at
Mon Feb 4 13:44:36 MST 2008

On Feb 4, 2008 11:49 AM, William Attwood <wattwood at> wrote:
> Hey Roberto, it's been awhile.  By cross-posting, I'm assuming you mean
> posting the same message to more than one user group; am I correct?


> You came across as attacking me without attacking me.  I'll do my best to
> re-iterate without defending, as we're all allowed our opinions.

No attacking, William. I was disagreeing with an opinion, and even so,
my understanding of it. That's very different from attacking you, the
person. It's hard to convey tone and emotion in e-mail, particularly
when it's a quick reply like for mailing lists.

Furthermore, I find it useful to develop a thick skin, particularly
for use in mailing lists. Too often I see people in mailing lists who
get offended so easily it's almost impossible to have a good
discussion with them.

> I follow the design out Methodology.  I design the data then the
> application, not the application then the data.  In doing so, I like to
> create my ER, UML, and/or ORM diagrams.  Not only do these help in a team

I might be a bit unorthodox here, as I don't really like to use ER
diagrams to design database structures. I use them for visualization,
but for design, pencil, paper and vi suffice. I believe C.J. Date has
talked in favor of this approach.

> > I find that often the "I'm a visual person and need boxes" speech
> > means the programmer needs a crutch and can't seem to dig into the
> > code without those crutches. Realize that I'm not saying that good
> > documentation, including graphs, are bad.
> That's an odd view.  Every developer has developed their own way to take an


> idea and turn it into a program.  It just so happens that I have to
> visualize the application, data, and relationships prior to creating the
> program.  This is due to the way my memory is hard wired; through images.
> I rely heavily on my Visual Memory in everything I do.  It seems you've
> taken a different, more popular approach to programming that doesn't rely on
> Visual Memory.

You say it's more popular based on what? In my experience most people
that grew up with Visual Studio-type tools seem to fall into the "I'm
a visual person" type of box, and that appears to be a much bigger

You and I just might have different understandings of what "visual"
means. I don't use boxes and graphs to "visualize" an application's
design in my head, or to design the application, or even its data.

As I said before, I find that distracting, slow, and constraining. But
YMMV obviously.


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