Bryan Sant bryan.sant at
Tue Feb 13 14:30:26 MST 2007

On 2/13/07, Levi Pearson <levi at> wrote:
> Since you didn't reply to the other points I made, I will assume that
> you now realize that the Java tools, although they are really very
> nice and possibly the most advanced available tools of their kind, are
> not revolutionary.  Most of the features you listed above existed in
> Smalltalk systems, some of them going back to the 80s.  The HotSpot
> technology that makes Java so fast was borrowed from Smalltalk-related
> code, too.  The success of Java was due to a marketing coup at a time
> when the Smalltalk vendors made poor business decisions, not any real
> technical superiority.  It has since developed tools beyond where
> Smalltalk was, but the language is still not as nice as Smalltalk, at
> least in my humble opinion. :)

I've haven't used the tools you mentioned, so I can't come back with a
snappy response.  I'll have to use them, and then deem them to suck in
comparison to Eclipse/NetBeans.  I'm downloading Squeak right now, and
plan on making an objective comparison.  If Squeak is not
state-of-the-art, you just point me to what is and I'll take a look

> You say you're not trying to argue that Java is the best, but it
> certainly looks like you are to me.  Go ahead and protest if you like,
> but no one believes you.  As for me, I've never said anything to

NO ONE believes me?  Only a Sith thinks in absolutes!

I do enjoy espousing the virtues of Java and debating the critics.
For me, Java is the best.  I'm an aggressive evangelizer.  I like
representing my point of view.  But, intellectually, I know that Java
isn't the best thing for all people or all purposes.  To each his own.

> suggest that I think people want to use Lisp.  Clearly, most people
> don't, whether out of ignorance or preference.  Really, that's fine
> with me, though I'd be happy to talk Lisp with someone who wanted to
> learn it.  And, by the way, Common Lisp runtimes are very fast.

And my blood doesn't boil when you or someone mentions the virtues of
Lips.  That's sensational.

> The JVM, thanks to HotSpot and the other new dynamic optimization and
> garbage collection technologies, is indeed a very nice platform for
> statically-typed languages.  Hopefully it will evolve into a very nice
> platform for dynamically-typed languages, too.  I've got nothing bad

JSR 292 will make alterations to the Java bytecode format and JVM to
make it more dynamic language friendly.

> to say about it, aside from the fact that it's still rather
> Java-centric.  But this, again, is an incremental improvement.  I'm
> happy that the technology is being used, though, instead of just
> rotting in some old codebase somewhere, and I hope that it grows
> better support for dynamically-typed languages.

Java 7 will be even better for dynamic langs.


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