in defense of Java, again [was: Re: Task Scheduling]

Jonathan Ellis jonathan at
Wed Jan 25 15:56:56 MST 2006

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:23:43 -0700, "Bryan Sant" <bryan.sant at>
> On 1/25/06, Roberto Mello <rmello at> wrote:
> Yikes.  Can't I just mod this as troll and move on?

Oh, crap.  Somebody pushed Bryan's "Rabid java defense" button.

> > - Developer performance goes (way) up
> This is only true if you're restricted to use vim or emacs.
> If you use an IDE such as Eclipse or NetBeans, your
> productivity with Java and these tools far outstrips that of dynamic
> languages.

Have you actually used a modern dynamic language like Python for more
than a couple days?  Have you used it with a similarly modern IDE,
like Wing or Komodo?

I come from the Java camp.  I've presented at the Utah Java UG, twice.
I'm no novice.  But I started doing Python full-time about a year ago
and I feel _hugely_ more productive.

It frustrates me: there's this growing camp of people saying,
"We've been there!  We know Java!  But we recognize a better thing
when we see it!" but [some] Java people stick their heads in the sand
and say, "I do not like green eggs and ham!  I do not like them,
Sam I Am!"

And to a point it's understandable when you've invested all this
time and effort in a system, to not want to start over in a new one.
But it's still disappointing to see.

> So long as it is small enough for a single person or small group to
> maintain.  For larger projects, type-safety and mature frameworks save
> time and reduce errors.

I used to think this, too.  Now, I'm not so sure.

But, since I'm going to do my best to never work for a large company
again, I don't really care too much.  The amount of functionality
a small group can achieve in Python is staggering.  The vast majority
of projects won't _need_ more than a handful of developers, with
the acompanying exponential increase in time lost to communication

> > - Need for consultants goes down
> If your staff isn't skilled enough to work with Java, then I'm sure
> this is true.

Oh, come on.  Let's be honest here.  Look at poor Ryan over there --
he's barely sure what J2EE _is_, let alone whether his project needs it.
With very few exceptions (*cough* twisted *cough*) you don't
see this kind of bloated monstrosity in the Python world.

Now, here we're conflating Java-the-language with Java-the-set-of-
standards.  But you don't see one without the other very often,
and that's where the consultants suck the blood out of the industry.

C++ is history repeated as tragedy. Java is history repeated as farce.  --Scott McKay

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