Struts, Spring, Tapestry, oh my!

Jonathan Ellis jonathan at
Wed Aug 10 20:26:43 MDT 2005

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" <erich at>
> If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your 
> disposal, consider JSF.

Man.  Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap betwen
"Jonathan simple" and "J2EE simple" appears to be.  It's like I'm living
in some kind of parallel universe.

Here's one example just for fun.

So they took all the problems the ASP.NET-style leaky abstraction gives
you, and on top of that made you have to write idiot boilerplate like
FacesContext context = FacesContext.getCurrentInstance();

to get anything done.

I'm glad it works for you, but I don't think you're (and by "you" I mean
"java developers on the plug") helping your case by calling stuff like
this "simple" in the context of a Linux UG.  Many of us still buy into
that whole "small is beautiful" thing.

> JSF is a relatively new standard that is being highly touted by Sun 
> Microsystems.  They hired the creators of Struts to create the JSF 
> standard and to help write the reference framework.  Please note that 
> JSF is a standard, not a framework, and that several competing 
> implementations of JSF are available.

Fantastic.  Meanwhile, Microsoft continues to eat Sun's lunch by
providing solutions that

a) really do bear some resemblance to being "simple" in the normal,
non-J2EE-developer sense of the word, and
b) aren't fragmented by various vendors trying to "value add" their way
into incompatibility.

> Six months ago JSF was relatively unknown and was not worth much because 
> it was very shallow (in terms of components and support).

> Why is JSF gaining so much momentum right now?

It is?

Maybe you're right; I only barely pay attention to J2EE these days but
if it were gaining as much traction as you're saying I think I would
have noticed.

> Which IDE to use?  Well, I've had my programming team try four and this 
> is what we decided:
> 1.  First we tried Java Studio Creator version 1.  It worked o.k., but 
> it didn't have all the components we wanted.
> 2.  We looked at Oracle's JDeveloper which has a lot of great components 
> (but realized that you have to license the ADF objects if you aren't 
> running it on OAS so we dumped it)
> 3.  We used an eclipse plug in.  It did the XML stuff o.k., but it 
> didn't have WYSIWYG page editing.
> 4.  A few weeks ago Sun announced Studio Creator 2 in beta.  So we 
> switched and has been a lot better.
> Studio Creator 2 beta is a huge memory hog, and it's a little sluggish 
> at times (hopefully they fix that before they release it).

Ahh, the price of simplicity...


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