Struts, Spring, Tapestry, oh my!

Michael Torrie torriem at
Wed Aug 10 19:37:49 MDT 2005

On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 13:47 -0600, Al Byers wrote:
> Thanks, I haven't had an opportunity to plug Open for Business 
> ( for some time now. OFBiz is really two things - 
> an innovative framework for developing applications and a suite of 
> quality ERP modules (strong e-commerce, back office and manufacturing). 
> It is java based, but skips the bloated bean oriented approach of most 
> frameworks in favor of a service oriented architecture. It  has an 
> entity engine like Hibernate that lets it be database agnostic, but it 
> is driven by xml config files instead of classes. When you think about 
> it, it is overkill to be building classes just for simple persistence. 
> It has an xml-based UI approach that is a couple iterations past JSPs 
> (it handles those, too, though).

This whole weird drug dependency on xml files is one of the main things
that drives me away from anything Java.  It's so bad and very confusing
and not very readable either.  It only gets worse when you need to mix
in other things like Spring.  Sounds to me like Ruby Rails has at least
got it right by eliminating this XML garbage.  Thanks, by I don't want
to "program" in XML.  With the new Avalon framework, and even XUL, this
whole XML thing is getting way over-used.  It's like Stewart's
signature:  XML is like violence.  If it doesn't solve your problems,
you aren't using enough of it.

Please don't take this as a critique of OFBiz in general.  It's more of
an anti-Java kick.  Those who've followed my posts have seen be swing
back and forth between being pro-java, anti-php to pro-php, anti-java.

In my opinion, for what I am doing on a daily basis, anything Java for
web apps is overkill.  Over-designed, over-abstracted.  Did I mention

>  It actually started here in Utah and the lead on it, David Jones, is 
> here now. There are a number of companies in Utah that do use it. We had 
> a users group going at one time and will probably start it up again 
> soon. In my mind, OFBiz is what can happen if you have one or two genius 
> types create something (as opposed to something that is driven by 
> committees and hidden agendas) and let the open source community come 
> along behind and validate, test and enhance. We just had our third 
> annual users conference in St. Louis.

Keep up the good work.  Sounds like you do actually (despite the XML)
have a great product.


> -Al Byers
> .-----------------------------------.
> | This has been a P.L.U.G. mailing. |
> |      Don't Fear the Penguin.      |
> |  IRC: #utah at   |
> `-----------------------------------'
Michael Torrie <torriem at>

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